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Corporal Punishment I moderate two online message boards that serve listeners to WBAI radio (a non-commercial station in NYC). Needless to say, they are an opinionated bunch, with probably less respect for "authority figures" than most. Occasionally, various aspects of religion will be discussed. Below are excerpts from a thread that developed around the subject of corporal punishment. I thought it might be of interest, though some posts are angry and raw. I hope no one is offended. All names have been changed and some edits made to clarify or obscure. Frank
George Andrews [broadcaster] mentioned today that at his Catholic elementary school, not only was there the requisite brutality by certain specially trained nuns, but one priest packed a gun and scared the beegeezuz out of the little ones by occasionally pulling it out. One can only wonder if he did this in the confessional to impress on the sinner the dangers of straying too far from the path, or... Well, I'll leave it to all my fellow ex-Catholics to fill in the blanks. Actually, why don't we adjourn to the other board and tell our parochial school horror stories? They say it does one good to talk about these things. º|º Pat A "teacher's convention" found a nine-year old me and a public school mate roaming our neighborhood one sunny, late morning. We thought it would be amusing to track down our parochial school friend, Rosemary, who was stuck in classes at St P's. No one had warned us about nuns. We were a Presbyterian and a Baptist; in our imaginations, nuns were at continual prayer in a chapel. Having no idea where the classrooms were, much less which one contained Rosemary, my friend and I split up and began a search. The first two classrooms were filled with little ones in uniform, who spotted me peering in the windows. Feeling enormously superior, I waved at them. I rounded a corner of the building when the earth suddenly shook; "UHMPHH" was the last thing I heard before two hands flew down over my face, grasped my shoulders, and spun me around. "WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING?!" I looked up to see a tall, frowning nun. Where the heck had she come from? It was as if she had literally plummeted from the sky... "I was...going to say hello to a friend; she goes to school here..." I stammered. The nun began to shake me back and forth - not too hard - and I offered no resistance. "WHAT'S YOUR FRIEND'S NAME?" she demanded. "I...forget..." I actually did forget. "WELL THEN, WHAT'S YOUR NAME?" That, I remembered, but I wasn't about to give up my name, rank and serial number. I thought nuns were relatively unworldly, so I squeaked out, "Annette Funicello," "THEN WHY AREN'T YOU ON TV INSTEAD OF DISRUPTING OUR CLASSES?!" She held me out at arm's length and regarded me with disgust. "COULD IT BE YOU'RE A LIAR AS WELL AS A DISRUPTIVE LITTLE GIRL? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS TO BAD LITTLE GIRLS WHO LIE? DO YOU KNOW?" I just gaped at her. I still couldn't figure out where she'd come from. When she finally let me go, I ran. I had no idea where my friend was; I didn't care - I just wanted to be home where there was a bed to hide under. That evening, I telephoned Rosemary and related the thwarted attempt to find her; she shrieked in horror at what I'd done and revealed that I'd run up against Sister Rita Marie, the holy terror of St P. She'd been known to slap students who angered her! Rosemary sounded terror-stricken as she explained the situation to me. "If Sister finds out you were looking for me - she'll probably thrown me out of school! She's going to find your parents, you know. Swear you won't tell her! Cross your heart!" "I'm not Catholic," I replied; "She'll never find out -" AARGH!! The doorbell rang. I could hear my father saying, "Come in, Sister." I stopped breathing. I couldn't hear the rest until my father called me; "Pam, please come out here NOW!" Sloooowly I walked into the living room; my mother would later relate that my dad was asking Sister RM if there were any tickets to a church event or school play that he could buy. (There weren't any.) The nun probably thought, "How terribly Protestant, to buy your kid's way out of trouble..." The rest of it is a blur, 'though I know I apologized to the nun and was flabbergasted that she'd found my home. It must have been God who told her. I didn't betray Rosemary - but only because no one asked... My status among the parochial school kids shot way up - mainly because I'd sort of let Rosemary assume that Sister RM had tried to shake the whole truth out of me. For weeks, whenever I ran into any "St P" kids, they'd whisper that I was 'that public school kid who defied Sister RM.' It was heady stuff - but I never did learn how the heck Sister RM managed to sneak up on a person like that....to this day, I swear - she flew. º|º Tom They also had an assortment of paddles--had a special room just for the paddles, some with holes drilled in them for better aerodynamics. However, I'm in favor of a bit of knocking around of students by teachers--you wouldn't have whole schools full of impossible little hoodlums now if some discipline was still meted out. º|º Keith Back at St. M's there were these idiotic book assignment stickers in the back of each idiotic book. It's not my fault that some other inmate wrote my name four more times under my initial signing in that new book. OMG, a "new" book. It was supposed to remain pristine for the next ten years of use! Actually, those 7 yrs at St. M's were productive. At least there I learned to read and divide. The military base schools I attended afterwards never quite made an attempt at learning after that. º|º anonymouse you must have gone unpunished for many other lapses! º|º Ivonovsky I recall getting hit with sister's fists on the back! It made no difference, boys or girls. Also my younger sister a year behind me was once spotted by a nun seen "talking" to two public school boys in the park across the street with her friend. The nun later called them both aside and said: "Yes I know you 2 girls are pregnant, there's a place in Irvington where you can go" LOL! º|º Ivonovsky go up to the front of the class and kiss the pastors hand as we took it from him. Father M would then call upon the next student. My older brother reminded me of this "ritual" a couple of months ago and ask me if I had to "do it?" I said yes I remember it was all very weird. Also I remember in 7th grade when the school guard came through class announcing that JFK had been assassinated the nun at the time blamed us students and we all had to kneel on the floor the rest of the day! Very strange. And you wonder why we turned out so dysfunctional for the most part. There is so so much more! º|º George And Father M didn't have to flash his .38 to get youse to kiss his fingers? As for assassinating Kennedy - are you trying to squirm out of this? look me in the eye and tell me you didn't do it! Those nuns KNEW things, so fess up. º|º Anonymous Have you considered the possibility that the type of punishment that the nuns used during that time was also the punishment which was common in homes and to some extent in public schools. No one remember paddling? No one remember beatings at home with belts, razor strops etc? No one ever had a blackboard eraser thrown at them by a public school teacher? It wasn't just the nuns but society in general. Some states still permit physical punishment in the schools. º|º George It would definitely be interesting to hear what non-Catholic students experienced. The subject of brutality by teachers has come up innumerable times (in private, on this forum, on the radio) and it is almost always about Catholic schools. I cannot remember hearing anyone from the public school system complain about this. I think part of the issue is that of the CONTRADICTION of being taught about a God of love by the very same people who might break a 12" ruler on your hand (happened to a classmate) a few minutes later. It definitely affected my view of Catholicism and my decision to go elsewhere. "No one remember beatings at home with belts, razor strops etc?" It may have happened around me in my neighborhood, but I was not aware of it. My family never hit me in all my years -whilst the nuns did on a number of occasions (usually for talking!). My biggest regret about my own 8 years at [parochial school] and this issue is that I am not AWARE of a single instance of a parent going to the nuns and slapping them back - or at least complaining. It MAY have happened and should have happened in some cases, but certainly the school staff would not want to publicize it and the parent may well have been ostracized - but what a great scene in a story it would make. OTOH, this is all pretty much water under the bridge. I don't have bad feelings towards any nun in particular and have pretty good feelings about my experience. But the violence happened and it is sad. º|º Ivonovsky Public School punishment or abuse. I am not saying it didn't or doesn't exist but when we Catholic school kids reached High School, we could not believe the difference. Most of the "bad kids" the nuns so labeled turned out to do a lot better academically in general. My youngest brother was struggling so hard in parochial academically he almost had to "stay back" a year in 5th grade. I remember me and my sister pleading our Mom to have him transferred into PS. The following year he did and his grades and attitude changed dramatically. I don't mean to make broad generalizations in every case but this was my own experience. BTW the kids in PS could not believe the horror stories we told to them about our 8 long years at St. ####'s. º|º Obviously, they REALLY got to you if you can't — even reveal St.
####'s name. My sympathies. º|º Anonymous My mother would not allow me to go to the local parochial school because a nun had slapped my older cousin in the face, and my mother, not a practicing catholic anyway, objected. So the first time she was called into school about my behavior, she gave the teacher permission to slap me if necessary. It wasn't: I learned my lesson, and just sighed with relief that the only contact I had with the local catholic school was late-afternoon catechism classes several days a week, where I don't remember ever sitting, just standing around the room and repeating memorized answers from the Baltimore catechism. It was the threatening atmosphere of those sessions, and of the church itself, that was the dominant punishment. º|º Sam Fear is what I most remember about my years in the Catholic School System. Like other 'Catholic Survivors', I could write pages of horror stories. But what I want, what I truly wish, is to confront one of my former tormenters, and ask...why? Did they know what they were doing? Could they imagine the negative effects that would cascade through our lives. Literally into another century?! My God, we were just children. Truly, I don't want vengeance, at least not anymore, I just would like one of 'them' to tell me why. º|º George a coherent answer from a "tormentor," though I too would be very interested. I wonder if a study or book has been written. It, as I have indicated, a very alive subject. I would be interested in the answers of nuns who were not so harsh, but witnessed. Were there ever any regrets in the convent? º|º Sam The image of one of the 'rabid' nuns sitting alone in her convent 'cell', regretting her cruelties. Interesting...worthy of a short film, or stream of consciousness radio play. Art, may be the only way we'll ever get an answer. By chance, are any nuns, [active, or retired], reading this? Could you tell us anything? º|º Betty Shape up or ship out....shake downs forever for more $, and always guilty of something, the black cloud of original sin never to be lifted...I failed handwriting and typing because Sr. V scared the ... out of me. such fond memories, indeed.... º|º George I don't have a problem with churches asking for $. I don't think many are looking to get rich or waste our dollars. I left the church because of its teachings about sin, but I could probably reconcile their teachings re original sin, hell, etc. with my own "metaphysical" understandings of these things. I believe the central issue is that they lost sight of the forgiving nature of God and had a twisted idea about making mistakes. I believe their intentions were good (saving us from hell or poverty), but were attenuated by dogma and individual psychological quirks (OK, pathology in some cases). But many of our parents were not exactly enlightened either. º|º Sam I recall that at my school, St. M, we had to salute nuns, and priests. One must remember, in those days, WW2 was fairly recent history. Historically, it was about as close as we are to the Gulf War. Also, oddly, the only kind and thoughtful priest I ever knew when I was a child was a veteran. He was a Chaplin with the 8th air force stationed in England. They flew B-17's, and '24's against the nazi's. I remember the stories he told of going on missions, [against regs.],to be with with the crews he ministered to. I haven't thought of him in many years, and I'm embarrassed to say I can't quite remember his name. But I belive he had a profound effect on my life. I mean besides a life long affection for aircraft, besides that. He showed me men could be not only tough, but gentle, patient, kindly. He was, to that point in my life, the only nonfamilar adult to teach me this. And most importantly, and effectively, teach me by example. I didn't mean to go on like this, But lately I've been thinking about how I became whatever it is I am. Peace. º|º George "lately I've been thinking about how I became whatever it is I am" For what it is worth, my understanding of reincarnation is that we are led in early childhood to experiences which will re-establish character patterns that we actually created in other lives - so we should be cautious about saying so and so made me thus. These folks are really just vehicles to bring out what we have already fashioned of ourselves. And of course, the point is supposed to be that THEY do not make us anything, but offer us the opportunity to respond positively/creatively or negatively/predictably. Nice ideas, anyway. º|º Sam Good point. No one can make us do, or be anything. I hope I did "respond positively" to the Chaplin's kind example. Loving WW2 aircraft, esp. B-17's...well that's another matter.
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